Jim, I thought you'd like this photo of some ancient beasts from Utah's past.
Steve
Guah-natch Soo-eech
Saturday, December 12, 2009
Key Symbol - Possible Solution
Hi Jim,Here’s an example of a possible explanation by Dan Lowe of
Steve
Monday, December 7, 2009
Key Symbol
From--Steve Shafferssgoldenpath@ancienttreasurehunter.com
To--Jim Leslie
Hi Jim,
Find attached a photo of me by what we call the "Key Symbol". Some locals call them "Water Glyph" for reasons beyond me. However, what we have found is this symbols grace the lands of Northern Arizona and Southern Utah. They all appear as you see this one except for one site that has two long lines coming of the oblong circle instead of one like the one in the photo. Local Indians have no clue as to who put them there or why. Lichen growth on them vary but most show a significant coverage of lichen suggesting they are very old. Beneath two of these sites were found graves of large people. However they may have no connection.
Can you and your people shed some light on these glyphs? I have been studying them for 10 years but have little to show for it. I'll send more photos if you desire.
Thanks, Steve
Hi Steve,
Jim
Thanks Jim.
Thanks, Steve
Thanks Steve,
Thanks for the info on the holes. I had dismiss them as natural. Now I think they are important to the solution. Both appear to be inside the circle. If its more an ellipse both holes [with pegs] would be needed to make an ellipse on the rock
What are the azimuth angles of the lines? I suppose you have considered equinoxes & solstices - one is coming up the 21st. But a inscribed circle is not needed for these, so why the circle?
The area is flat like a small mesa, would be good for astronomical alignment sightings; if not the sun maybe moon phases. Are there any other markings on this rock or other rocks within sight of this one?
More photos might help - I'll put all on our blog & notify the MES eMail circle.
Sunday, September 13, 2009
Utah Petroglyph
Sept 8, 2009 - I was wondering if anyone within your group could help me on the interpretation of the glyph I have attached to this email. The photo is orientated correctly (top is up). It is located at the Fo
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
From: Dr. R.M. de Jonge, Wentholtweg 8
Tel.: 031-575-492813
Email: rmdejonge@gmx.net
Email: drsrmdejonge@hotmail.com
Website: www.howthesungod.com
September 13, 2009
Dear Steve Shaffer,
(Turn the photo of the petroglyph upside down.)
THE UTAH PETROGLYPH
It is the carving of a man. He has two legs, his body consists of two (or three) parts in the center, and his head is on top of it. Near his heart is a hole in the rock. It represents the site of the carving near Fillmore, Utah, at 39°N. His head is a square, and it is part of a row of four squares, because one degree higher is the latitude of 40°N. The man is a king of the Fourth Dynasty. Below his head (near his heart) is also a square, so it is the fifth king Menkaura (of the Fourth Dynasty), who discovered America via the Southern Aleutian Islands, at the complementary latitude of 90-39= 51°N.
Around the hole in the rock is a big eye, and the hole itself is the pupil (iris) of it. It is the eye of the SunGod Ra. He appears at the latitude of the holy Tropic of Cancer, at 23°N. His head is one degree higher, at 24°N, so king Menkaura also discovered the Crossing of the Bering Strait, at the complementary latitude of 90-24= 66°N.
The five squares, just mentioned, encode the Southern Crossing of the Atlantic to Cape Sao Rock (the Holy Rock), Brazil, at 5°S, discovered at the Fifth Dynasty. The two legs of the man encode its sailing distance, of 2 Moiras, or 20°, as discovered by the second King Sahura (of the Fifth Dynasty).
His body consists of two large parts in the center, so he also discovered the return route from Newfoundland to the West Azores. These two islands are located at the level of the site of this petroglyph, at 39°N. Counted from the left, the head of the man is the second box, confirming that this second Crossing was discovered by the second king Sahura.
Counted from the right the head of the man is the third box. So, the Northern Crossing, from the Shetland Islands, via the south point of Greenland, to Cape Chidley, Canada, was discovered by the third king Nefererkare. These three kings came from the Nile Delta, at 30°N. The Northern Crossing via the three landpoints happened at the complementary latitude of the Nile Delta, at 90-30= 60°N. It was the third Crossing of the Atlantic. The body of the man consists of two large parts and a small part, so three parts, confirming this third king.
The Utah petroglyph shows a man, consisting of two legs, three central body parts, and a head, with three boxes. These (2+3+1+3 =) 9 parts show the latitude of the island of Bermuda, 9° above the Tropic of Cancer, at 23+9= 32°N. So, the return route across the Atlantic via Ber-muda to the 9 islands of the Azores was discovered by the 9th king Unas of the Fifth Dynasty.
The Utah carving consists of 9 parts. However, it also has a hole, and at both sides two arms, which show that the petroglyph dates from the 9+3= 12th Dynasty (Middle Kingdom).
Regards,
Reinoud de Jonge
The Netherlands
P.S.
De Jonge, R.M., “The Discovery of Three Continents (Santo Stefano, North Sardinia, Italy, c.2300 BC)”, Ancient American, Vol.12, No.76, pgs.28-29 (2007)
From: Frank Joseph [mailto:frankjoseph44@gmail.com]
Sunday, September 13, 2009 11:54 PM
To: John White: johnwhite@columbus.rr.com
Subject: Re: FW: Help with Glyph
Looks very modern. Frank
From Steve Shaver ssgoldenpath@ancienttreasurehunters.com
Seotenber 14m 2009 5:57 PM
It’s not modern. The glyph was first photographed by Frank Beckwith back in 1929. It was covered in lichens and hardly noticeable!
From: David Grant Stewart Sr: dstewart@amnix.com
Sunday, September 13, 2009 7:39 PM
This is Olmec Hieratic.
Sunday, April 12, 2009
Two Unusual New York Artifacts
robbie@midhudson.info forwarded these two Midhudson articles on one-of-a-kind artifacts found in New York. The first is a metal cup with a 'serpent' and possible letters. The second link is another metal artifact, a medallian or coin, with first assumed 'Chinese' characters but my be a Ni-thir glyph. If any ideas, please post,,,,Jim Leslie
Subj: Ancient Bronze Artifact, Found in Wurtsburg NY
This may interest you...http://midhudson.info/news/?p=772
See also:http://midhudson.info/news/?p=909
robbie@midhudson.info
Subj: Ancient Bronze Artifact, Found in Wurtsburg NY
This may interest you...http://midhudson.info/news/?p=772
See also:http://midhudson.info/news/?p=909
robbie@midhudson.info
Tuesday, April 7, 2009
From Jim Leslie
I can't make the Indian artifact show, but its a good place to get some learned opinions. I too think its a design motif rather than ancient writing as we know it, but there is that curious "19" seen in the closeup. If it were ceramic rather than stone it might be an unfinished Indian ceramic bead?
Bob Draper Response
I'm going to go to MANHATTAN KANSAS INDIAN ARTIFACT SHOW to show it to someone there if you would like to see it up close it would be great. I will try to take more pics but I cant draw. The stone is vary small and the lines are vary vary small and hard to get a good pic . About the same as the lines in a finger print .
Thank you bob draper
Thank you bob draper
What is it
Dear Jim,
Perhaps a few guesses as to WHAT it is instead of "reading" the glyphs would help. The patterning and the obvious small size and it's artistic fine detail siggest it as a piece of statuary or fine pot to this observer. What would therefor appear as writing may be a repititious glyph-like pattern on the object.
Still it appears very ancient and worth intense study. Since it must have been a piece which pebble-like has tumbled in a stream it may be useful to go upstream in the river in which it was found, searching for wash downs of recent years which would uncover larger fragments or other artifacts.
Perhaps the finder would like to make a diligent search of the region or give someone with the time directions to it's exact location to pursue just as an archeologist would search for larger bone fragments. Analysis of the pot's clay source also comes to mind if it is indeed a potsherd.
Jack Lausa rlausa@pol.net
Perhaps a few guesses as to WHAT it is instead of "reading" the glyphs would help. The patterning and the obvious small size and it's artistic fine detail siggest it as a piece of statuary or fine pot to this observer. What would therefor appear as writing may be a repititious glyph-like pattern on the object.
Still it appears very ancient and worth intense study. Since it must have been a piece which pebble-like has tumbled in a stream it may be useful to go upstream in the river in which it was found, searching for wash downs of recent years which would uncover larger fragments or other artifacts.
Perhaps the finder would like to make a diligent search of the region or give someone with the time directions to it's exact location to pursue just as an archeologist would search for larger bone fragments. Analysis of the pot's clay source also comes to mind if it is indeed a potsherd.
Jack Lausa rlausa@pol.net
Monday, April 6, 2009
What is this response 1
I messed with the picture and then made a negative and a closeup (below). I think it enhances the details. Please pass it along.
From Russel: http://www.oregonrockart.com
***********************************
From Wayne May: yes, do it. wayne
Jim Leslie wrote: Hey Wayne, I fwd your email to our eMail Circle. I can also put it on our blog if its' OK with your contact person. Potential world-wide circulation with the blog. Let me know if its ok
***********************************
From David Grant Stewart, Sr.
Look a bit like Mayan or Olmec hieroglyphs, but not enough resolution to say anything definite.
What is this?
Jim: Can you circulate these photos? Seeking help. Sincerely, Wayne May
Begin forwarded message:
From: "bobdraper" <bobdraper@att.net>Date: April 2, 2009 3:57:04 PM CDTSubject: can you tell me what this isReply-To: "bobdraper" <bobdraper@att.net>I found this in the Thompson River in north MO. If you can tell me anything about it it would be good .i found this in the thompson river in north mo. if you can tell me anything about it it would be good .
Monday, March 9, 2009
Southwest Script Deciphered 2
From Michel Boutet Sunday, March 8, 2009
Dear Jim and all,
"They are sepulchral and the language is Common Celtic with cognates from Greek and Latin and already, in some cases, moving towards Portuguese."
I fully agree with Mr. Buchanan's general appraisal. Moving towards Portuguese however, could be indicative of a strong Lusitanian trait within the later latinised Ibero-Celtic idiom.
Lusitanian, being a much more archaic idiom than Celtiberian, is at the Proto-Celtic level before the branching out of Italic and Celtic groups. Lusitanian, as Latin, preserves the initial and pre-vowel ‘P’ in words such as superta-, c.f.: Latin ‘super-’ = “super”, “hyper” compared to Proto-Celtic *uper- yielding uer- / uor- in Old Celtic. Hence the Lucitanian word ‘porcom’, cf. Latin ‘Porcus’, Celtic ‘*( p)-Orcos’ ; see also : Petranoi harking the P-Celtic idioms such as Gaulish and British name Petrani < Petranis = “quadroon”, “set of four” compared to Q-Celtic Qetueres. Unlike Gaulish, Celtiberic was a continental Goidelic language similar to insular Gaelic of Hibernia.
The Lusitanians were primarily a single nation occupying the territories between the rivers Douro and Tagus. Later, the name Lusitania (from Celtic Lusitanoi = “Mountain Ash People”) was adopted by ancient Calaicians or Gallaeci (tribes living along the north of the Douro River).
So what was long previously thought as non-Celtic or Iberic was in fact a Pre- or Proto-Celtic Indo-European idiom now qualified as Calaician or Lusitanian. Just to compare, here are two examples, one of Lusitania inscriptions and one of Celtiberian proper.
This being said, I pretty much agree with Mr. Buchanan,
Michel
Dear Jim and all,
"They are sepulchral and the language is Common Celtic with cognates from Greek and Latin and already, in some cases, moving towards Portuguese."
I fully agree with Mr. Buchanan's general appraisal. Moving towards Portuguese however, could be indicative of a strong Lusitanian trait within the later latinised Ibero-Celtic idiom.
Lusitanian, being a much more archaic idiom than Celtiberian, is at the Proto-Celtic level before the branching out of Italic and Celtic groups. Lusitanian, as Latin, preserves the initial and pre-vowel ‘P’ in words such as superta-, c.f.: Latin ‘super-’ = “super”, “hyper” compared to Proto-Celtic *uper- yielding uer- / uor- in Old Celtic. Hence the Lucitanian word ‘porcom’, cf. Latin ‘Porcus’, Celtic ‘*( p)-Orcos’ ; see also : Petranoi harking the P-Celtic idioms such as Gaulish and British name Petrani < Petranis = “quadroon”, “set of four” compared to Q-Celtic Qetueres. Unlike Gaulish, Celtiberic was a continental Goidelic language similar to insular Gaelic of Hibernia.
The Lusitanians were primarily a single nation occupying the territories between the rivers Douro and Tagus. Later, the name Lusitania (from Celtic Lusitanoi = “Mountain Ash People”) was adopted by ancient Calaicians or Gallaeci (tribes living along the north of the Douro River).
So what was long previously thought as non-Celtic or Iberic was in fact a Pre- or Proto-Celtic Indo-European idiom now qualified as Calaician or Lusitanian. Just to compare, here are two examples, one of Lusitania inscriptions and one of Celtiberian proper.
This being said, I pretty much agree with Mr. Buchanan,
Michel
Friday, March 6, 2009
Southwest Script Deciphered
Dear Jim -I wrote to Donal Buchanan about the tablet as he is the expert in Southwest Iberic.Can you post what he wrote to me? Maybe someone can send him a good photo of the stone. Thanks, Zena (Zena Halpern)
*****
Dear Zena,
The photo they show at the top is usually the one I told you was Almodovar III (known and deciphered by me years ago and published in 1991 as a supplement to ESOP volume 20/2 (see my Decipherment of Southwest Iberic). I successfully deciphered 43 of the stones. They are sepulchral and the language is Common Celtic with cognates from Greek and Latin and already, in some cases, moving towards Portugese. They are not as early as supposed (other scholars have said 400-200 BC). It is my contention (principally based on the language used) that most of the Iberic inscriptions in Spain and Portugal (a version of this script appears in East Central Spain and has been deciphered by me and published in ESOP) fall within a period from 200 BC to 200 AD; and the inscriptions of SW Portugal may be rather late, perhaps dating between 100 and 200 AD. I spent something like 30 years working on the Iberic scripts and feel that I was successful in solving the SW inscriptions. I look forward to seeing this new stone. The picture you sent with your message does show it (way down the page) and you cannot see the inscription because the chap who is pointing it out for the photographer is in the way. I need to see a good photo of the whole stone and/or a graphic. I'll keep looking through the Internet till I find it. Meanwhile, as I told you, Zena, I will now tell your friends. I can provide The Decipherment of SW Iberic in .pdf format on CD for $15 plus $5 postage and handling (total $20; check to be made out to The Epigraphic Society; a snailmail address will be needed (international shipping will be higher, depending on where it is going). Also available are CDs containing volumes 1-15 and volumes 16-25 for $50 each plush shipping and handling and a DVD containing volumes 1-25 for $100 plus shipping and handling. Volume 26 of ESOP is out and available now (paper copy) for $40 plus s/h.Thank you, Zena. I have sent this to all your correspondents so they can be as well-informed as you are.
All the best,
don
Donal B. Buchanan
Secy/Treasurer, The Epigraphic Society
Editor, ESOP
*****
Dear Zena,
The photo they show at the top is usually the one I told you was Almodovar III (known and deciphered by me years ago and published in 1991 as a supplement to ESOP volume 20/2 (see my Decipherment of Southwest Iberic). I successfully deciphered 43 of the stones. They are sepulchral and the language is Common Celtic with cognates from Greek and Latin and already, in some cases, moving towards Portugese. They are not as early as supposed (other scholars have said 400-200 BC). It is my contention (principally based on the language used) that most of the Iberic inscriptions in Spain and Portugal (a version of this script appears in East Central Spain and has been deciphered by me and published in ESOP) fall within a period from 200 BC to 200 AD; and the inscriptions of SW Portugal may be rather late, perhaps dating between 100 and 200 AD. I spent something like 30 years working on the Iberic scripts and feel that I was successful in solving the SW inscriptions. I look forward to seeing this new stone. The picture you sent with your message does show it (way down the page) and you cannot see the inscription because the chap who is pointing it out for the photographer is in the way. I need to see a good photo of the whole stone and/or a graphic. I'll keep looking through the Internet till I find it. Meanwhile, as I told you, Zena, I will now tell your friends. I can provide The Decipherment of SW Iberic in .pdf format on CD for $15 plus $5 postage and handling (total $20; check to be made out to The Epigraphic Society; a snailmail address will be needed (international shipping will be higher, depending on where it is going). Also available are CDs containing volumes 1-15 and volumes 16-25 for $50 each plush shipping and handling and a DVD containing volumes 1-25 for $100 plus shipping and handling. Volume 26 of ESOP is out and available now (paper copy) for $40 plus s/h.Thank you, Zena. I have sent this to all your correspondents so they can be as well-informed as you are.
All the best,
don
Donal B. Buchanan
Secy/Treasurer, The Epigraphic Society
Editor, ESOP
Wednesday, March 4, 2009
How to participate in this blog
Our blog is restricted. Only MES members may participate. To participate, check your email. You received an email from no-reply@google.com. The subject was “You have been invited to contribute to Chiseled in Stone’s blog.”
The email message provides a link to sign in.
Since “Chiseled in Stone” is a Google blogspot, you'll need to sign in with a Google account. If you don't have a Google account yet, they'll show you how to get one very quickly. It is free, easy and they ask for no personal information. Please sign up and become an author for our blog. Then you’ll be able to post and comment. Thanks.
The email message provides a link to sign in.
Since “Chiseled in Stone” is a Google blogspot, you'll need to sign in with a Google account. If you don't have a Google account yet, they'll show you how to get one very quickly. It is free, easy and they ask for no personal information. Please sign up and become an author for our blog. Then you’ll be able to post and comment. Thanks.
Tuesday, March 3, 2009
Best Wishes
What a great way to share data and new information on ancient writings, and how they link our continent to the rest of the world. Thanks for making the effort...and spreading the news.
Best Wishes,
Judy M Johnson
Sec. AAPS/Ancient Artifact Preservation Society
www.aaapf.org
Best Wishes,
Judy M Johnson
Sec. AAPS/Ancient Artifact Preservation Society
www.aaapf.org
Re: Boutet - on the Ancient Writing
From: Penny Loafier
To: Jim Leslie
Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 12:02:44PM
Dear Jim-Michal.
The SW script is a 36-7 letter syllabify. Glozel and Novelana [and the late Tartessian] at BC, are 23-6 letters alphabets.
The SW script is correctly dated by the workers in Portugal, at about 2700-2400 BP. It is partly ancestral to at least five dialect Iberic scripts, and partly co-eval, not entirely, with N Iberic, which is also a syllabify, with a number of syllabic characters. The SW script is based itself on some supra-alphabetic [more than 28 characters probably] precursor of Etruscan [or maybe of Lycian,] see D Stewart's idea, probably from the Lydian to Lycian, and Hittite zonal area.
Glozel has been translated quite adaquately by D Buchanan, [[Epigraphic Soc. O.P's-No's 24. 26 [2006, 2008 etc.,] articles, with Donal seeing it as a mixed, "Semitic trader-Celtici scipt," dating about [4th-3rd [350-250?] century BC, and also now translated by three European main scholars, who found many of the same texts to contain Romainzing personal and place names, in an Italic-Celtici patois, indicating Romanization in progress, [about 140-1 BC; and maybe to about 40 AD.] Some of the same names are known prosopographically real persons [from regular Latin-script inscr. texts, and even literary texts.] [120 BC-40 AD]; and some of the place names involve Romanization at the nearby Vichy Opida-dependent, sub-communities, [about 14 local village to small town place names,] and just later at Claimont.
Glozel derives directly from Lepontic, which derives partly from Neo-Etrsucan, all post-450 BC scripts.
Novelana often has a ligatured, or semi-iconic-logoramic "Emblem Glyph" involved-with it, as on the BC cave wall panels Falcon's tex; [tsee -An Am current issue article,] see the two connected middle elements-[being a located geographically recently by us Emblem Glyph,] also on the BC-EG stone, [in Frank Joseph 2008.]
But we may have two examples of a SW script-type short text, from real BC contexts, indicating a 5th to 4th century BC date, maybe???..
More soon, Genny.
To: Jim Leslie
Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 12:02:44PM
Dear Jim-Michal.
The SW script is a 36-7 letter syllabify. Glozel and Novelana [and the late Tartessian] at BC, are 23-6 letters alphabets.
The SW script is correctly dated by the workers in Portugal, at about 2700-2400 BP. It is partly ancestral to at least five dialect Iberic scripts, and partly co-eval, not entirely, with N Iberic, which is also a syllabify, with a number of syllabic characters. The SW script is based itself on some supra-alphabetic [more than 28 characters probably] precursor of Etruscan [or maybe of Lycian,] see D Stewart's idea, probably from the Lydian to Lycian, and Hittite zonal area.
Glozel has been translated quite adaquately by D Buchanan, [[Epigraphic Soc. O.P's-No's 24. 26 [2006, 2008 etc.,] articles, with Donal seeing it as a mixed, "Semitic trader-Celtici scipt," dating about [4th-3rd [350-250?] century BC, and also now translated by three European main scholars, who found many of the same texts to contain Romainzing personal and place names, in an Italic-Celtici patois, indicating Romanization in progress, [about 140-1 BC; and maybe to about 40 AD.] Some of the same names are known prosopographically real persons [from regular Latin-script inscr. texts, and even literary texts.] [120 BC-40 AD]; and some of the place names involve Romanization at the nearby Vichy Opida-dependent, sub-communities, [about 14 local village to small town place names,] and just later at Claimont.
Glozel derives directly from Lepontic, which derives partly from Neo-Etrsucan, all post-450 BC scripts.
Novelana often has a ligatured, or semi-iconic-logoramic "Emblem Glyph" involved-with it, as on the BC cave wall panels Falcon's tex; [tsee -An Am current issue article,] see the two connected middle elements-[being a located geographically recently by us Emblem Glyph,] also on the BC-EG stone, [in Frank Joseph 2008.]
But we may have two examples of a SW script-type short text, from real BC contexts, indicating a 5th to 4th century BC date, maybe???..
More soon, Genny.
Favorite websites
Hello, Everyone.
I think we should list associated websites among our links in the left-hand column. I've started with the MES website. What other ones should we list? Bill Conner: you have a website and a blog, don't you? Would you send me their urls? I'll add them to the list. Everyone, please email me or post your favorites here on the blog and I'll compile the list.
Thanks very much.
Siebahn Gallagher
siebahng@gmail.com
I think we should list associated websites among our links in the left-hand column. I've started with the MES website. What other ones should we list? Bill Conner: you have a website and a blog, don't you? Would you send me their urls? I'll add them to the list. Everyone, please email me or post your favorites here on the blog and I'll compile the list.
Thanks very much.
Siebahn Gallagher
siebahng@gmail.com
Re: More on the Ancient Writing
From: M.-G. Boutet
To: Jim Leslie
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:22 PM
Hi folks,
Very interesting post. This quote from the site sent by Siebhan caught my eye :
ALMODOVAR, Portugal, tablet
“"We hardly know anything about (the people's) daily habits or religious beliefs," he says.
Southwest Script is one of just a handful of ancient languages about which little is known, according to Swiggers. The obscurity has provided fertile ground for competing theories about who wrote these words.
It is generally agreed the texts date from between 2,500 and 2,800 years ago. Most experts have concluded they were authored by a people called Tartessians, a tribe of Mediterranean traders who mined for metal in these parts — one of Europe's largest copper mines is nearby — but disappeared after a few centuries. Some scientists have proposed that the composers were other pre-Roman tribes, such as the Conii or Cynetes, or maybe even Celts who roamed this far south.
Another translation difficulty is that the writing is not standardized. It seems certain that it was adapted from the Phoenician and Greek alphabets because it copied some of their written conventions. However, it also tweaked some of those rules and invented new ones.” (Hatton, Barry. Experts Try to Decipher Ancient Language. AP, Feb 28, 2009.
http://news.aol.com/article/southwest-script-language/362822)
To me, the pre-Roman Celtic connection looks just right. The Connii (those of Knowledge) or Cunetes (Hunters) are the most likely linked to these inscriptions. And of course, the script looks very much like the Glozel and BC tablets! As old Caesar himself wrote concerning the Gaulish tribes : “It is said that these young men have to memorise endless verses, and that some of them spend as long as twenty years at their books; for although the Druids employs Greek characters for most of their secular business, such as public and private accounts, they consider it irreverent to commit their lore to writing. I suspect, however, that a double motive underlies this practice; unwillingness to publicise their teaching, and a desire to prevent students relying upon the written word at the expense of memory training; for recourse to text-books almost invariably tends to discourage learning by heart and to dull the powers of memory.” (De Bello Gallico, Book VI )
Caesar could not mistake Greek for some other script. The Druids were just careful to whom they entrusted their knowledge and Julius was not just not one of them.
The pictures of stones cited in the articles just look too blurred and hard to see. But if I can trust your transcription, here is what I can read (with ease pardon me and the transliteration is exact I hope!) on one document:
Iine iihâ deorho raserohiie bueleco nii s’indiâ ceo ceanonâ neco elohlâli anach tshebu aballe bue coel.
That is :
“Here (within) She (this One) overcomes too long (those of) dwelling (the abode) here shame to cause to die (death causing) little progeny (very young ones) the local showers of Apple-tree which would be sign in the sky (omen).”
Seems all too clear. They were trying to conjure a drought famine.
But, this being said, methinks I will let the Phuds take further notice. Read the textperts for further notice.
Michel
[Jim’s comment: Many thanks Michel! Like you John White has noted the significance of these plates with those of Burrows Cave.]
To: Jim Leslie
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:22 PM
Hi folks,
Very interesting post. This quote from the site sent by Siebhan caught my eye :
ALMODOVAR, Portugal, tablet
“"We hardly know anything about (the people's) daily habits or religious beliefs," he says.
Southwest Script is one of just a handful of ancient languages about which little is known, according to Swiggers. The obscurity has provided fertile ground for competing theories about who wrote these words.
It is generally agreed the texts date from between 2,500 and 2,800 years ago. Most experts have concluded they were authored by a people called Tartessians, a tribe of Mediterranean traders who mined for metal in these parts — one of Europe's largest copper mines is nearby — but disappeared after a few centuries. Some scientists have proposed that the composers were other pre-Roman tribes, such as the Conii or Cynetes, or maybe even Celts who roamed this far south.
Another translation difficulty is that the writing is not standardized. It seems certain that it was adapted from the Phoenician and Greek alphabets because it copied some of their written conventions. However, it also tweaked some of those rules and invented new ones.” (Hatton, Barry. Experts Try to Decipher Ancient Language. AP, Feb 28, 2009.
http://news.aol.com/article/southwest-script-language/362822)
To me, the pre-Roman Celtic connection looks just right. The Connii (those of Knowledge) or Cunetes (Hunters) are the most likely linked to these inscriptions. And of course, the script looks very much like the Glozel and BC tablets! As old Caesar himself wrote concerning the Gaulish tribes : “It is said that these young men have to memorise endless verses, and that some of them spend as long as twenty years at their books; for although the Druids employs Greek characters for most of their secular business, such as public and private accounts, they consider it irreverent to commit their lore to writing. I suspect, however, that a double motive underlies this practice; unwillingness to publicise their teaching, and a desire to prevent students relying upon the written word at the expense of memory training; for recourse to text-books almost invariably tends to discourage learning by heart and to dull the powers of memory.” (De Bello Gallico, Book VI )
Caesar could not mistake Greek for some other script. The Druids were just careful to whom they entrusted their knowledge and Julius was not just not one of them.
The pictures of stones cited in the articles just look too blurred and hard to see. But if I can trust your transcription, here is what I can read (with ease pardon me and the transliteration is exact I hope!) on one document:
Iine iihâ deorho raserohiie bueleco nii s’indiâ ceo ceanonâ neco elohlâli anach tshebu aballe bue coel.
That is :
“Here (within) She (this One) overcomes too long (those of) dwelling (the abode) here shame to cause to die (death causing) little progeny (very young ones) the local showers of Apple-tree which would be sign in the sky (omen).”
Seems all too clear. They were trying to conjure a drought famine.
But, this being said, methinks I will let the Phuds take further notice. Read the textperts for further notice.
Michel
[Jim’s comment: Many thanks Michel! Like you John White has noted the significance of these plates with those of Burrows Cave.]
Re: Responses: Experts trying to decipher ancient language AND the Human FootpriGreat picture!
Assembled and distributed by Jim Leslie Mon, 2 Mar 2009 7:45 pm
Hi everyone,
I don't want to be a party pooper, but two of my computer geeks have told me that since my computer is so critical to my income, that I should throw away, unopened ALL FORWARDS and open GROUP mailings, because literally every group email contains viruses. You see my dilemma.
Certainly a blog...a place that people can go and share data would be useful. Rick Osmon is working on a Chat Room covering ancient American (and beyond) subjects. http://www.oopaloopacafe..com/index.html That may be a good place to go. Susan English has something relating to ancient waterways. I know there are others out there, but I am not the best person to ask. Susan would be a good contact as she is quite "networked" in the field. Her address is SuzEnglish@aol.com
AAPS has a LINKS page with many connections too. We can add more if you let me know. go to:
http://www..aaapf.org/scripts/openExtra.asp?extra=11
Up to here with paper doll business...working on spring newsletter for AAPS too.
Anything you want included? Notices of events? interesting finds that connect the world to America?
Let me know.
Thanks,
Judy
Judy M Johnson, Sec. AAPS (Prev. AAAPF)Ancient Artifact Preservation Society5th Annual AAPS Conference on Ancient America, Marquette Michigan, Sept 24-27th, 2009
Conf. on Ancient Copper, July 10-12, 2009, Houghtonwww.aaapf.orgPS- I'm very slow in answering email. I've had the address so long, and get so much junk mail, it overwhelms me and takes too much time, and I decide each day- "Shall I work at my paper doll business or deal with email?"...and my business usually wins out. If you need me to know something right away, please phone. THANKS!
*********************************
Below are some responses. I enjoy everyone's contributions to these mass emails. It does bring up a need we have in common, that is a BLOG dedicated to ancient inscriptions, symbols, etc. I do not know of an existing such blog. Its a good idea. Any MES member or non-member takers? Let me know. The MES web page host – Midphase of Chicago does offer a blog with hosting our page - I'd have to check for certain.
A blog would answer Judy's below concerns too. Thanks Judy. I had thought of using bcc for routing, but wanted to allow an individual to correspond easily with individual circle members. A blog again would resolve that too. What to others think? I will go bcc if others want it too. And I will gladly drop this circling email monster I started in favor of other alternatives - like a blog. Please speak up!
Let me know. Jim Leslie
While writing the above, David Stewart responded to Judy with this:
Had Jim done that I could not have responded to you.
I like to distinguish what could happen from what actually does happen.
Jim's software could contain all sorts of nasties, but it does not.
*************************************************************
Hi Jim,I see I just duplicated this news notice...and sent it off to many of the same people...but then not a lot of them too.I could see (aaaarrrggh!) all those names right out there in your open group mailing.you will see by prev. email sent to you today an alternative way of sending group mailings to keep you and all your associates much safer internet-wise.Thanks for sharing,Love, JudyHere are some interesting findings:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7913375.stm
Best Wishes,
Judy
Hi everyone,
I don't want to be a party pooper, but two of my computer geeks have told me that since my computer is so critical to my income, that I should throw away, unopened ALL FORWARDS and open GROUP mailings, because literally every group email contains viruses. You see my dilemma.
Certainly a blog...a place that people can go and share data would be useful. Rick Osmon is working on a Chat Room covering ancient American (and beyond) subjects. http://www.oopaloopacafe..com/index.html That may be a good place to go. Susan English has something relating to ancient waterways. I know there are others out there, but I am not the best person to ask. Susan would be a good contact as she is quite "networked" in the field. Her address is SuzEnglish@aol.com
AAPS has a LINKS page with many connections too. We can add more if you let me know. go to:
http://www..aaapf.org/scripts/openExtra.asp?extra=11
Up to here with paper doll business...working on spring newsletter for AAPS too.
Anything you want included? Notices of events? interesting finds that connect the world to America?
Let me know.
Thanks,
Judy
Judy M Johnson, Sec. AAPS (Prev. AAAPF)Ancient Artifact Preservation Society5th Annual AAPS Conference on Ancient America, Marquette Michigan, Sept 24-27th, 2009
Conf. on Ancient Copper, July 10-12, 2009, Houghtonwww.aaapf.orgPS- I'm very slow in answering email. I've had the address so long, and get so much junk mail, it overwhelms me and takes too much time, and I decide each day- "Shall I work at my paper doll business or deal with email?"...and my business usually wins out. If you need me to know something right away, please phone. THANKS!
*********************************
Below are some responses. I enjoy everyone's contributions to these mass emails. It does bring up a need we have in common, that is a BLOG dedicated to ancient inscriptions, symbols, etc. I do not know of an existing such blog. Its a good idea. Any MES member or non-member takers? Let me know. The MES web page host – Midphase of Chicago does offer a blog with hosting our page - I'd have to check for certain.
A blog would answer Judy's below concerns too. Thanks Judy. I had thought of using bcc for routing, but wanted to allow an individual to correspond easily with individual circle members. A blog again would resolve that too. What to others think? I will go bcc if others want it too. And I will gladly drop this circling email monster I started in favor of other alternatives - like a blog. Please speak up!
Let me know. Jim Leslie
While writing the above, David Stewart responded to Judy with this:
Had Jim done that I could not have responded to you.
I like to distinguish what could happen from what actually does happen.
Jim's software could contain all sorts of nasties, but it does not.
*************************************************************
Hi Jim,I see I just duplicated this news notice...and sent it off to many of the same people...but then not a lot of them too.I could see (aaaarrrggh!) all those names right out there in your open group mailing.you will see by prev. email sent to you today an alternative way of sending group mailings to keep you and all your associates much safer internet-wise.Thanks for sharing,Love, JudyHere are some interesting findings:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7913375.stm
Best Wishes,
Judy
More on the Ancient Writing
Assembled and distributed by Jim Leslie Mon, 2 Mar 2009 9:29 am
Dear Jim,
You don't have to blind copy me. I like knowing the names of others who have similar interests to mine.
Roxanna
********************************
Dear Jim, currently I cannot deal with this theme, becuse I would like to finish the Ph.-disk as soon as possible. (At the end of March we certainly move to Alsoörs for at least 2-3 weeks.)The trouble with such photos is that they are not sharp enough and does not reproduce the full picture, only part of it. May I suggest to teach the MES amateurs to produce sharp and full photos. Without these criteria the pictures are not readable. (Especially not readable if they had been produced by immigrants from SSEEP.MAGAR.I.HA, i.e. SSIB.EER.I.HA. Of course, I am joking!)
Best regards: Pal2nd March 2009.
[Resp from Jim Leslie - please forward your remarks concerning the quality of the photos to the Associated Press. We in MES do take better photos ! The link in the next response is better but still not clear enough - they don't want others getting ahead of them in translation! ]
****************************************************************
Hi Everybody:
In this article on today's AOL, you can see some more details.
http://news.aol.com/article/southwest-script-language/362822
Click on the article's photo and an enlargement pops up.
Siebahn Gallagher
Dear Jim,
You don't have to blind copy me. I like knowing the names of others who have similar interests to mine.
Roxanna
********************************
Dear Jim, currently I cannot deal with this theme, becuse I would like to finish the Ph.-disk as soon as possible. (At the end of March we certainly move to Alsoörs for at least 2-3 weeks.)The trouble with such photos is that they are not sharp enough and does not reproduce the full picture, only part of it. May I suggest to teach the MES amateurs to produce sharp and full photos. Without these criteria the pictures are not readable. (Especially not readable if they had been produced by immigrants from SSEEP.MAGAR.I.HA, i.e. SSIB.EER.I.HA. Of course, I am joking!)
Best regards: Pal2nd March 2009.
[Resp from Jim Leslie - please forward your remarks concerning the quality of the photos to the Associated Press. We in MES do take better photos ! The link in the next response is better but still not clear enough - they don't want others getting ahead of them in translation! ]
****************************************************************
Hi Everybody:
In this article on today's AOL, you can see some more details.
http://news.aol.com/article/southwest-script-language/362822
Click on the article's photo and an enlargement pops up.
Siebahn Gallagher
Assembled and distributed by Jim Leslie Sun, 1 Mar 2009 8:52 pm
Dr. R.M. de JongeWentholtweg
Website: www.howthesungod.com
Email: inscriptions@midwesternepigraphic.org
March 2, 2009
Dear Jim Leslie, I don’t have much time to spend on the petroglyphs from SW Iberia at the moment, but note that the Tartasus writing consists of two successive lines, each of 37 symbols, equal to the latitude of the site, and of the island of Sta Maria (East Azores) in the Atlantic Ocean, both at 37°N. So, the text partly deals with geography.
Regards,
Reinoud de JongeThe Netherlands
From Genny:
Scripts to check on commonness of characters, if you have a complete font from the newspaper article, include:
1. Old Italic-abt 25 letters.
2. Etruscan-abt 24-6 letters..
3. Neo-Etruscan.same
4. Lepontic-slightly later alphabet.
5. Linear B- a considerably larger number of characters..
6. Also the "Old Dacian or "Gimbutasian" script, 36-7 characters, originally identified by Gimbutas, needs checking; only in her first version of her basic idea books, 3 later versions of these.
7. Linear A; for the "squiggles" characters.
8. Old Cypriot-37 letters..
9. Phystos disk syllabary's-60-70 charcters.. [Try Lycian also]
10. Old Cypriot -37 letters
Check "PROEL" and "Omniglot" on www for best fonts to printout.
lv. Genny
Dr. R.M. de JongeWentholtweg
Website: www.howthesungod.com
Email: inscriptions@midwesternepigraphic.org
March 2, 2009
Dear Jim Leslie, I don’t have much time to spend on the petroglyphs from SW Iberia at the moment, but note that the Tartasus writing consists of two successive lines, each of 37 symbols, equal to the latitude of the site, and of the island of Sta Maria (East Azores) in the Atlantic Ocean, both at 37°N. So, the text partly deals with geography.
Regards,
Reinoud de JongeThe Netherlands
From Genny:
Scripts to check on commonness of characters, if you have a complete font from the newspaper article, include:
1. Old Italic-abt 25 letters.
2. Etruscan-abt 24-6 letters..
3. Neo-Etruscan.same
4. Lepontic-slightly later alphabet.
5. Linear B- a considerably larger number of characters..
6. Also the "Old Dacian or "Gimbutasian" script, 36-7 characters, originally identified by Gimbutas, needs checking; only in her first version of her basic idea books, 3 later versions of these.
7. Linear A; for the "squiggles" characters.
8. Old Cypriot-37 letters..
9. Phystos disk syllabary's-60-70 charcters.. [Try Lycian also]
10. Old Cypriot -37 letters
Check "PROEL" and "Omniglot" on www for best fonts to printout.
lv. Genny
Re: The Associated Press: Experts trying to decipher ancient language
These are all very low resolution JPGs with bad lighting for reading the script.
But here are a couple of useful transcriptions.
400,http%3A%2F%2Fd.yimg.com%2Fa%2Fp%2Fap%2F20090228%2Fcapt.5d097753071444a68442aa3603f08cd1.portugal_lost_language_ny344.jpg
250px-I_tarteso.jpg
250px-Un_signari_sudoccidental_%28Rodr%C3%ADgez_Ramos_2000%29.jpg
From David Grant Stewart, Sr. Sun, 1 Mar 2009 1:48 pm
But here are a couple of useful transcriptions.
400,http%3A%2F%2Fd.yimg.com%2Fa%2Fp%2Fap%2F20090228%2Fcapt.5d097753071444a68442aa3603f08cd1.portugal_lost_language_ny344.jpg
250px-I_tarteso.jpg
250px-Un_signari_sudoccidental_%28Rodr%C3%ADgez_Ramos_2000%29.jpg
From David Grant Stewart, Sr. Sun, 1 Mar 2009 1:48 pm
Re: The Associated Press: Experts trying to decipher ancient language
Does anyone have a better photo of this, or the capability to enhance or enlarge it?
From Jack Burgess Sun, 1 Mar 2009 1:24 pm
From Jack Burgess Sun, 1 Mar 2009 1:24 pm
Re: The Associated Press: Experts trying to decipher ancient language
This appears to be a ca. 800 B.C. dialect of Etruscan.
The basic stock of characters (ca. 70%) match with what we know of 700 B.C. Etruscan.
There is a significant carryover (ca. 20%) of characters from Linear B as we know it.
The remaining few characters (ca. 10%) seem to be aftermarket simplifications of Linear B, a phenomenon of simplifying the parent script as we have seen in e.g. the Los Lunas stone with Paleohebrew.
In sum, it appears to be the writing of a people closely related to but half a millennium earlier than the Etruscans we know of south of Rome.
Some of the characters [two] are not syllables, but numbers, namely 10 and 50.
From David Grant Stewart, Sr. Sun, 1 Mar 2009 12:28 pm
The basic stock of characters (ca. 70%) match with what we know of 700 B.C. Etruscan.
There is a significant carryover (ca. 20%) of characters from Linear B as we know it.
The remaining few characters (ca. 10%) seem to be aftermarket simplifications of Linear B, a phenomenon of simplifying the parent script as we have seen in e.g. the Los Lunas stone with Paleohebrew.
In sum, it appears to be the writing of a people closely related to but half a millennium earlier than the Etruscans we know of south of Rome.
Some of the characters [two] are not syllables, but numbers, namely 10 and 50.
From David Grant Stewart, Sr. Sun, 1 Mar 2009 12:28 pm
The Associated Press: Experts trying to decipher ancient language
Southwest Script in Portugal
From Jim Leslie Sun, 1 Mar 2009 11:53 am
From Jim Leslie Sun, 1 Mar 2009 11:53 am
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